Curse

Shikaru · Aug 04, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

While reading the numerous QQ threads about Ursan, I started thinking about how to change mob composition in PvE in order to make it more interesting.

So here are my suggested changes: (these ideas only apply to level 20 areas and also assumes that no matter where you are, mobs have access to all skills and professions.)

1) Give every balanced mob a monk with a decent skill bar. Spirit bond would be a primary skill that these monks would have since it counters "Hulk Smash" mentality. Also Ursans would have a hard time killing someone with Spirit Bond on them.

2) Give every balanced mob some form of monk shutdown/pressure. Shattering Assault sins come to mind or a dom mesmer that actually sits on your monk.

3) Have mobs that run varied gimmicks. A single zone could have a group of ViM trappers and a group of rodgorts invocation spike. This is a stretch but maybe even a group with Fevered Dreams/Fragility and a Temple Strike Assassin.

So what are your ideas? Keep in mind that this thread is only for changing mobs or even how some quests work and not nerfing skills. Please don't bring NERF URSAN (or nerf anything for that matter) into this thread.

Try to keep the suggestions reasonable (no "make all mobs have 30 attribute in fire and 10k HP" suggestions). Be as specific or as general as you like. Discuss.

Tyla · Aug 04, 2008, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Basic skill use. Skills used in combination with each other and basic AI of kiting in general. Decent skillbrs and basic "player" skill. Also when aggro'd it can't be de-aggro'd and knows to swap targets when blocking, SoA and other mitigation prots go up.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 04, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Remove PvE skills.
Remove consumables.

Give mobs well-developed skillbars, possibly developed by PvP players or adapted from ones being run in high end GvG and HA. Write new AI that is smarter. Adjust different types of enemies' AI so they understand how to run specific builds they're given.

Bryant Again · Aug 04, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

For one, make it so you can't use the Holy Trinity: When one party member aggroes a monster, that monster mob is aware of all party members, not just the one in the aggro range.

That aside, "basic" additions, such as Mithran's ideas, always make things a bit more interesting.

Thizzle · Aug 04, 2008, 02:22 AM // 02:22

I would say Hard Mode.

Sarevok Thordin · Aug 04, 2008, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Ban Ursan.

lol12char

cellardweller · Aug 04, 2008, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Give the AI better pathing. As long as it is possible to bodyblock the ai into possitions that they can't escape, then pve is trivial.

MisterT69 · Aug 04, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

Ban Ursan.

lol12char

If that's your idea of making PVE more challenging....wow, not like there's better builds than ursan, o wait...

Just give the mobs Ursan, that's all really lol

Thizzle · Aug 04, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterT69

If that's your idea of making PVE more challenging....wow, not like there's better builds than ursan, o wait...

Just give the mobs Ursan, that's all really lol

If mobs get Ursan than we might as well change the professions to Ursan and Monk.

Marverick · Aug 04, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

#1. Better skillbars. It's not that hard to implement and would go a long way towards improving AI, and in general, the game itself.

#2. Better AI. As said, AI just do too many stupid things right now. For example, they like to shoot at walls and see how many rocks they can destroy.

#3. More shutdown. Mobs need to have a mix of anti-caster and anti-melee. Balanced mobs should have an even blend of both, and one or two profession mobs can lean more heavily towards one side. Gimmicks would also be a good idea to destroy unprepared and reckless teams.

#4. And finally.... I know you said you don't want to hear this, but... balance Ursan. As it is, Ursan is basically immune to shutdown. Even with the best builds and AI, 5x150 damage is pretty much an instant kill that is repeatable every 5 seconds.

Also, this should be kept to hard mode only. Implementing it in normal mode would hurt the casual player group too much.

PvE skills/consumables are really fine. In hard mode, consumables only serve to bridge the gap between players and monsters. After all, monsters have like +5 to all their attributes, +20 armor, +200 something health, 50% faster moving, casting, and recharging, etc. inherently.

Shikaru · Aug 04, 2008, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

PvE skills/consumables are really fine. In hard mode, consumables only serve to bridge the gap between players and monsters. After all, monsters have like +5 to all their attributes, +20 armor, +200 something health, 50% faster moving, casting, and recharging, etc. inherently.

I think some suggestions stated here would be a better version of HM and could probably replace the current HM we have now. Making monsters imba seems like a pretty lazy way to do it.

If HM was changed for mobs to have better skill bars vs hit for 100 dmg every hit, we could remove consumables from the game.

While I wanted to stay away from Ursan, the idea of giving mobs the ability to use Ursan (or maybe even a more powerful/slightly varied version of Ursan) is an interesting one.

Bryant Again · Aug 04, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

PvE skills/consumables are really fine. In hard mode, consumables only serve to bridge the gap between players and monsters. After all, monsters have like +5 to all their attributes, +20 armor, +200 something health, 50% faster moving, casting, and recharging, etc. inherently.

There's no need to create a bridge because a bridge already exists. The monsters were given all of those overpowered "perks" because the AI does not and will not ever meet the superiority that is the player.

Aera Lure · Aug 04, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Give mobs well-developed skillbars, possibly developed by PvP players or adapted from ones being run in high end GvG and HA. Write new AI that is smarter. Adjust different types of enemies' AI so they understand how to run specific builds they're given.

Pretty much this. It would of course include shutdown and other build suggestions mentioned by others. The insane reflex ability of mobs, interrupting your 1/4 cast time spells, may need to be tempered in some fashion to be slightly more "human", since mobs having much better builds and the knowledge to use them would become quite interesting. Might even help to serve as the primer for PvP that PvE was once thought of.

I'd then drop Ursan's ability to be used outside of specific areas in EotN for story purposes, or nerf it considerably, since it removes the concept of actually having character classes in the first place. I dont see a problem with other PvE skills in this adjusted context.

Consumables are probably ok as well, since as mentioned elsewhere, they merely keep you on par, or just closer, to enemy stats in HM. The buff in mob builds and AI would surely compensate for consumables remaining in the game.

I'd aim for making it too hard, first. Bring back the need to work with others online, as opposed to snoozing through guiding Heroes through the game. Then scale back the difficulty slightly as needed, so that the average player can play through Normal. HM should ideally require human teams in my opinion, or an extremely skilled leader of Heroes. Up the HM rewards if this is the case.

Master Ketsu · Aug 04, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Mainly just boils down to not giving them retarded skill bars with only 3~5 skills. Give them actual secondary profession usage and full bars / balanced groups. Be creative in the design- make different areas have monsters that carry unique skill combos amongst each other making each area feel different from the other. Currently 95% of mobs basically come down to some form of defense and some sort of damage. Shutdown and build synergy are almost non-existent, and when it is existent it is ussually in a dumbed down form or random location which encourages a very degenerate style of play that focuses on nothing but beatdown.

This is actually one of the reasons why I hated gw pve. It seems the designers made no real attempt to create interesting builds. I wouldn't be surprised if a random number generator was used to decide what went where.

TL;DR don't be a lazy designer.

optymind · Aug 04, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

From reading these posts I get the impression people are FORCED to use PVE skills and cons.

Aera Lure · Aug 04, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by optymind

From reading these posts I get the impression people are FORCED to use PVE skills and cons.

No, but having them overpowered in the game as currently balanced means its silly and Quixotic not to use them (and I dont, and I realize I just called myself silly lol). I can make the game harder for myself by using only four skills in my bar instead of eight. We can all do that. Game balance is balanced by developers for a reason. Its not player determined.

Gregslot · Aug 04, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Your ideas (wich have been suggested before).
Mithran's ideas (wich have also been suggested before) but not exactly like that.

*Some monsters dont even have 8 skills.
*Add more monsters skills like:
"Out of my way": All adjacents foes are moved to a nerby random location and are knocked down. (bye bye tank'n'spank)
*Nerf ursan (or moronway, seriously, only 3 buttons?)

Monsters dont need to be balanced, they can have unlimited energy (hence Charr Wardkeeper), can have multiple elites and can have over 2 secondary professions.
Whats stoping you?

edit: The new Charr and the new Stone Summit have nice builds.

mr_stealth · Aug 04, 2008, 03:43 AM // 03:43

I like the suggestions Marverick made. I'd like to see that implemented into HM instead of just having overpowered monsters that are just as dumb. Right now the only thing making HM hard is a monster being able to do 150+dmg in a single hit. Blind it, and its the same level of difficulty as killing it in NM, but with better loot. Give the monster a secondary profession and the ability to remove that blind, and it becomes more of a challenge. This might require some tweaking of the mob level/attributes, but would be fun even if some of the mobs were a bit too hard for some people.

Anet already took a small step in the right direction with the Charr and Dwarves in EotN. They have 2 professions and better skillbars than most other monsters. I was surprised to see monster mesmers ressing and monks with interrupts/e-management.

Ariena Najea · Aug 04, 2008, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikaru

1) Give every balanced mob a monk with a decent skill bar. Spirit bond would be a primary skill that these monks would have since it counters "Hulk Smash" mentality. Also Ursans would have a hard time killing someone with Spirit Bond on them.

The AI monsters who currently use Life Bond will not use it until your or an ally goes within aggro range of the mob. At this point, even if the monk is under attack, it will still attempt to life bond at least one person (note the centaur lifebond in the shiverpeaks), in which time even an incompetent group could kill or severely damage the monk.

Monsters do far better with quick spammable skills, such as glimmer of light and shield guardian.

StormDragonZ · Aug 04, 2008, 04:04 AM // 04:04

I don't want to make any changes to PvE. It's fine the way it is.

If you want to make changes for challenge, add more meaningless quests to gain experience, gold and random consumables under the Master Difficulty Quest name.